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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with anthropologist and publisher of the

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para anthropology journal Jack hunter

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does this ability manifest itself more

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in some people than in others and

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obviously we know it does but

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particularly what I think you bring that

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I had never thought of and I think is an

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interesting thing to kind of grind on is

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is it more prevalent in certain cultures

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is it more prevalent in certain social

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situations with certain combinations of

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events people rituals practices all

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those things and I just think that's

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mind-blowing that opens it up in so many

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different ways am I in the right

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direction and what are your thoughts on

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that specifically in terms of what might

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be the directions that folks might want

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to go to find this phenomena manifesting

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itself more frequently more measurably

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all the rest oh yeah well that's exactly

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what I'm talking about when you look at

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the anthropological literature or the

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ethnographic literature and look at the

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the kinds of experiences that people

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have have reported to anthropologists in

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the field all over the world you find

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these kind of common characteristics for

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instance like you said ritual is a major

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it is an important process for people to

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go through in order to have these kinds

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of experiences and I think that the

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parapsychological community is as missed

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out on that they could for instance use

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ritualized procedures in the laboratory

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that's one example or take the

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laboratory out to the rituals stay with

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm host Alex Karras and on this episode

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Jack hunter someone I've been looking

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forward to talking to for quite some

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time he was suggested to me or brought

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to my attention to me by you listeners

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and I'm so glad you did his work in Para

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anthropology it's really fantastically

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mind-bending for me in some ways that I

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found very very interesting so let's get

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right to the interview afterwards I have

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a couple of thoughts want to bring up to

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date not just a couple of things that

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are going on and I have a question for

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you from this interview so here goes

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today we welcome Jack hunter - skeptic

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Oh jack is a doctoral candidate in the

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Department of Archaeology and

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anthropology at the University of

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Bristol in the UK he's the author of a

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very very interesting book called

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talking with the spirits and you may

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know him through his publication his

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online journal that he's done for

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several years now which is called para

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anthropology Jack it's been very

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interesting diving into your work I've

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kind of heard about you for a couple

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years and always thought it was such

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great great work that you're doing and

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I'm certainly happy to have you on

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skeptic oh so thanks for joining me and

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thank you very much you know as we were

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just chatting about really briefly there

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what I thought we might do is start with

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some of the basics first off a little

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bit more about your background about

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your PhD work there at Bristol and your

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work in the Department of Archaeology

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and anthropology and then certainly some

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background on this very groundbreaking

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brave to publish journal that you have

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pair anthropology so do you want to kind

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of kick us off with some background

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stuff yeah okay so I first really became

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active in this kind of paranormal stuff

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when I finished my first university

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degree at the University of Bristol and

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for my dissertation for that

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degree I wrote about a group of spirit

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mediums in Bristol and resort became

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interested in their the kinds of

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experiences they were having and once I

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finished my degree I kind of wanted to

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carry on working with this group and and

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delving into it a little deeper so I

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applied to do a PhD to look further at

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it and fortunately I was given the

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opportunity to do it but it's all it's

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all been self funded I haven't had any

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like major grants and then the parent

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apology journal kind of came out of that

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at the time my supervisor fear in a bow

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we were setting up this group called the

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afterlife Research Center based at

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Bristol and the group was specifically

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concerned with thinking about the

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afterlife in the cross cultural context

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so looking at afterlife beliefs in

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different cultures and there was quite a

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heavy emphasis on spirit mediumship and

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shamanism and at one of the meetings of

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the afterlife Research Center we started

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to talk about the need for a journal in

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the UK that dealt with these kind of

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issues I mean in in the u.s. there's the

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Journal of the Society for the

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Anthropology of consciousness which

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deals with similar things but there's

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not much in the UK so I just thought I'd

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go ahead and undo it great great you

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know the other thing I wanted to kind of

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use as a starting point is tell us about

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anthropology I mean I guess we all know

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it as we kind of walk through the museum

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and they say oh this is anthropology

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this is what anthropologists do but in

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talking to a couple of anthropologists I

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get the sense that I'm not really

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connected with I guess the mindset

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because I think there's a very cool

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progressive kind of expansive mindset at

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least among some anthropologist I guess

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not all but you know what is it really

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about what do you guys do what is the

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fieldwork like what is the science

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behind it and what is the scientific

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status of it within the university what

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do other people think about anthropology

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hmm okay well very basically

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anthropology is the study of human

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beings so I take that in quite a broad

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way

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and obviously all of my research into

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the paranormal and things like that

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comes under the banner of human life

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because humans do these things

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regardless of whether these things are

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real or not so for an anthropologist

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studying human beings

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there's the specific ways that they do

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it and the chief methodology that they

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use is ethnography which is basically

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going into the field living with people

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and trying to immerse yourself in their

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life as deeply as possible and then

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writing it and then from that deducing

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you know perhaps grander theories that

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can be applied more broadly to human

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culture and that's kind of anthropology

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in a nutshell for me though my fieldwork

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has been based with these this group of

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spirit mediums in an urban context so

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you hear about anthropologists going off

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to Africa or you know the Middle East or

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you know anywhere in the world basically

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but you can also do anthropology at home

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and that's kind of what I've done an

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interesting thing about spirit

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mediumship his anthropology's had a

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really long history of investigating

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spirit mediums going right back to the

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very early days of the discipline but

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it's always been off in far-off distant

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lands and very little research has

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actually been done on spirit mediums so

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within the Western context it's almost

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as though anthropology hasn't really

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wanted to face up to the fact that these

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things aren't just out there they're

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also at home as well yeah yeah so my

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research as yes try to do that a little

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bit and how does that sit with the rest

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of the college there the rest of the

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disciplines I mean how do they view

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anthropology kind of as these quirky

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guys who are okay as long as they stay

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out there with the average and he said

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the other but you know what is it like

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especially when you kind of bring it

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back home like that mmm well I haven't

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had any negative experiences with it I

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mean in terms of my my involvement in

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the department I'm not really bear very

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often I live in Wales which is quite a

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little way away from Bristol but I do

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sense and again I'm just kind of waiting

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into the waters here so I'd be kind of

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totally off-base

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but you know just some of the

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stuff that comes through from even kind

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of more mainstream anthropology does

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seem to kind of bump up against some

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sacred cows just in terms of experience

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for example yeah in one of your essays

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that I found on you're very nicely done

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the website at academia.edu you

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mentioned taking experience seriously

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what are the consequences and it's one

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of those little parts of this whole

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thing that on one hand seems so basic I

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think you know if you just told the kind

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of man on the street this what are the

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consequences of taking experience

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seriously and that being this kind of

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deep a philosophy of science kind of

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question that we really have to wrestle

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with I think people would just be

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stunned me what do you mean we have to

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take experience seriously of course we

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take experience seriously yeah I mean by

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taking experience seriously is in

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anthropology anthropologists going out

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into the field always come up against

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these or come across these people who

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have completely you know disparate kinds

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of experiences to what the

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anthropologist is use is used to and

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anthropologists have traditionally

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written about these experiences but in a

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kind of almost kind of a dismissive way

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so for instance experiences of spirit

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mediumship will be they may they might

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be mentioned but they won't be delved

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into it's not like they want to find out

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what these experiences actually are they

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can see that people do have experiences

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that are unusual for instance but

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they're not generally willing to take

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that extra step and analyze the

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experience in itself think kind of

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taking a deep phenomenological approach

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to experience and that's something that

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I'm particularly interested in because

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when you come up with these come across

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these strange experiences of mediumship

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and all the kinds of shamanism and

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out-of-body experiences and stuff those

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experiences seem to suggest something

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that the kind of dominant worldview of

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our own culture is kind of dismissive of

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and kind of ignores

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so yeah I think taking those experiences

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seriously is an important step for

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anthropology it's a huge step because

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really when you talk about our culture

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you're talking about science as we know

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it you're talking about the established

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scientific paradigm that is pervasive

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throughout every University and that's

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that we should not take these

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experiences seriously particularly when

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they go into these areas that you're

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talking about they contradict this idea

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of consciousness being this product of

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the brain that we can measure very

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precisely and all the rest of that so I

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guess what I'm saying is it seems to me

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that anthropology is open in some ways

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because just being progressive in nature

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it's kind of moved away from I think

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that updated idea that we can all look

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at and say well gee of course we have to

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be more accepting of other cultures and

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we we've seen that throughout history

276
00:11:45,389 --> 00:11:43,629
the whole cultural bias that we can

277
00:11:46,769 --> 00:11:45,399
place in terms of saying the primitives

278
00:11:49,619 --> 00:11:46,779
you know these primitive people with

279
00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:49,629
primitive ideas and I think anthropology

280
00:11:55,829 --> 00:11:52,600
is a discipline that's kind of helped us

281
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:55,839
rise above that and see more culturally

282
00:12:00,269 --> 00:11:58,240
inclusive way that we can't do that and

283
00:12:02,579 --> 00:12:00,279
I think your work is just a natural

284
00:12:04,829 --> 00:12:02,589
extension of that I that's what I get

285
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:04,839
the sense of that anthropology is kind

286
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:07,120
of in somewhat of a unique position to

287
00:12:13,079 --> 00:12:10,930
be more receptive to jumping the chasm

288
00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:13,089
and saying well if I'm taking these

289
00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:15,910
other experiences of their culture of

290
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:18,160
their society seriously well then of

291
00:12:25,019 --> 00:12:21,120
course I should consider taking these

292
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:25,029
paranormal experiences seriously at

293
00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:27,610
least from an experiential basis from

294
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:29,649
the fact that they say they've had it am

295
00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:32,470
I wrong there is anthropology maybe in a

296
00:12:37,199 --> 00:12:34,720
better position to explore some of this

297
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:37,209
than let's say neurosciences because

298
00:12:41,790 --> 00:12:39,519
they're totally weds to this idea that

299
00:12:43,369 --> 00:12:41,800
mind equals brain yeah I really think

300
00:12:45,809 --> 00:12:43,379
that that is the case anthropology

301
00:12:47,970 --> 00:12:45,819
because of its very nature as a

302
00:12:49,650 --> 00:12:47,980
discipline that's involved with you know

303
00:12:52,590 --> 00:12:49,660
real-life human beings who have

304
00:12:55,290 --> 00:12:52,600
real-life experiences we have to be open

305
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:55,300
to those aspects of other people's you

306
00:12:59,939 --> 00:12:57,730
know whole worldview there's no way we

307
00:13:00,720 --> 00:12:59,949
can we can escape from having to deal

308
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:00,730
with it

309
00:13:05,460 --> 00:13:02,110
which is you know what anthropologists

310
00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:05,470
have tended to try and do is not not

311
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,990
worry about what the the implications of

312
00:13:13,769 --> 00:13:10,320
those kinds of experiences actually are

313
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:13,779
so yeah I think that's what my work is

314
00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:16,570
really an extension of that idea towards

315
00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:18,430
taking these experiences that people

316
00:13:23,009 --> 00:13:20,889
have seriously and not dismissing them

317
00:13:26,009 --> 00:13:23,019
tell us some more about your work

318
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:26,019
specifically your fieldwork with your

319
00:13:30,449 --> 00:13:28,690
medium group there in the UK because I

320
00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:30,459
think people just find it fascinating

321
00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:33,310
the actual nuts and bolts and what

322
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,449
you've discovered and some of the

323
00:13:37,860 --> 00:13:36,399
experiences you've shared in doing that

324
00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:37,870
work yeah

325
00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:40,120
well the group that I've been working

326
00:13:46,319 --> 00:13:42,820
with was founded I think in about 2006

327
00:13:48,180 --> 00:13:46,329
by a lady who had been had been invited

328
00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:48,190
to attend a physical mediumship seance

329
00:13:52,259 --> 00:13:50,470
which is with ectoplasm and all of those

330
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:52,269
kind of things floating objects and

331
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:54,399
stuff and she basically had her mind

332
00:13:59,460 --> 00:13:57,610
blown by the experience and when she got

333
00:14:02,250 --> 00:13:59,470
home she decided that she would she

334
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:02,260
wanted to to have in her own kind of

335
00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:05,230
scientific way to delve into this a

336
00:14:08,579 --> 00:14:06,670
little bit deeper and try and find out

337
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:08,589
what exactly it was that she experienced

338
00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:11,110
in the seance room so to do this she

339
00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:13,540
decided she would set up her own spirit

340
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:16,600
lodge essentially and invite people in

341
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:19,680
who would go on to develop as mediums

342
00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:22,810
and then basically take things into her

343
00:14:27,090 --> 00:14:24,880
own hands and develop the mediums

344
00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:27,100
herself from scratch and record all of

345
00:14:31,199 --> 00:14:28,990
her experiences and their experiences

346
00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:31,209
along the way so when I came to write my

347
00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:32,470
dissertation for my undergraduate

348
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:35,220
dissertation no undergraduate degree I

349
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:38,050
was looking I was interested in the the

350
00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:39,910
reasons why people believe in spirits

351
00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:42,060
just that just out of my own interest

352
00:14:47,069 --> 00:14:44,230
and I wanted to find some way of

353
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:47,079
exploring that idea through ethnography

354
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:49,839
and I visited a few spiritualist

355
00:14:53,790 --> 00:14:51,130
churches and things like that but I

356
00:14:56,639 --> 00:14:53,800
wasn't able to really kind of get the

357
00:14:59,910 --> 00:14:56,649
kind of deep participation I wanted to

358
00:15:01,910 --> 00:14:59,920
to get into I don't know why that is I

359
00:15:03,809 --> 00:15:01,920
think it might be because these

360
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:03,819
spiritualist churches have got

361
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:07,750
constantly fluctuating attendance and so

362
00:15:11,490 --> 00:15:09,850
I was basically just like I'd turn up

363
00:15:12,809 --> 00:15:11,500
and if I didn't turn up the next day it

364
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:12,819
didn't really matter because that's just

365
00:15:18,450 --> 00:15:14,560
what people do in those kind of churches

366
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:18,460
huh so I found this this group which

367
00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:19,930
just happened to be by some kind of

368
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:22,150
weird synchronicity about a 20-minute

369
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:23,290
walk down the road from where I was

370
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:25,930
living at the time mm-hm and they had

371
00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:27,610
this interesting website and a blog it

372
00:15:31,710 --> 00:15:29,140
was full of all of these accounts of

373
00:15:33,630 --> 00:15:31,720
weird things that they'd seen and these

374
00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:33,640
communications from their spirit teams

375
00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:35,350
as I oh this seems like the perfect

376
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:37,990
opportunity you know to talk to people

377
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:41,440
who actually communicate with spirits on

378
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:45,120
a regular basis and so I went along and

379
00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:47,890
it was it was you know very interesting

380
00:15:55,079 --> 00:15:52,440
the very first seance I went to was on a

381
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:55,089
really cold winter's morning I think it

382
00:16:01,170 --> 00:15:57,610
was in January and I had to trek through

383
00:16:03,450 --> 00:16:01,180
the snow to get there and instantly it

384
00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:03,460
broke down my my preconceived ideas

385
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:05,230
about what a seance was because it was

386
00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:07,660
in the morning I usually assumed that

387
00:16:11,850 --> 00:16:09,910
they would be you know in the at night

388
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:11,860
in the dark but we went out into the

389
00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:13,360
shed in the back in their back garden

390
00:16:19,829 --> 00:16:17,140
literally like a small wooden shed and

391
00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:19,839
inside it was all done up with a circle

392
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:21,550
on the floor and a cabinet in the corner

393
00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:24,730
and chairs all around the edge of the of

394
00:16:32,250 --> 00:16:29,140
the room and the medium came in and sat

395
00:16:34,890 --> 00:16:32,260
down in the in the cabinet and went into

396
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:34,900
this kind of trance and she was her body

397
00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:36,850
was twitching and all of these things

398
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:39,220
that it was ooh really amazing to see

399
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:41,410
good I've never seen anything like it

400
00:16:44,130 --> 00:16:41,920
before

401
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:44,140
and they switched the red lights on and

402
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:46,330
then I saw these like little flashes of

403
00:16:50,460 --> 00:16:48,910
light and things like that which at the

404
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:50,470
very least made me think that there was

405
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:52,510
some kind of again coming back to

406
00:16:56,610 --> 00:16:54,910
experience or some kind of experiences

407
00:16:58,920 --> 00:16:56,620
that you can have in these kind of

408
00:17:03,210 --> 00:16:58,930
situations regardless of what their

409
00:17:05,550 --> 00:17:03,220
ultimate ontological status is so that

410
00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:05,560
was kind of my impetus to keep

411
00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:07,569
researching the group because from the

412
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:09,220
very first seance they went to I myself

413
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:12,970
have had you know strange anomalous

414
00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:14,410
experiences if you want to call them

415
00:17:18,689 --> 00:17:16,150
this yeah absolutely

416
00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:18,699
so as an anthropologist you're walking

417
00:17:25,410 --> 00:17:22,540
into this seance what are you thinking

418
00:17:27,630 --> 00:17:25,420
in specifically what methodologies what

419
00:17:28,439 --> 00:17:27,640
tools how are you thinking you're going

420
00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:28,449
to a pro

421
00:17:33,659 --> 00:17:31,480
this as an anthropologist and then if

422
00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:33,669
you could is there anything you said

423
00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:35,230
this kind of shattered some of your

424
00:17:39,149 --> 00:17:37,240
preconceived ideas about mediumship it

425
00:17:41,639 --> 00:17:39,159
sounds like it might have shattered some

426
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:41,649
of your preconceived ideas about reality

427
00:17:46,289 --> 00:17:43,450
and consciousness as well how do you

428
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:46,299
deal with that given your discipline hmm

429
00:17:52,049 --> 00:17:49,210
well anthropology again in general and

430
00:17:53,879 --> 00:17:52,059
ethnography the whole point of it is to

431
00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:53,889
go into the situation in this kind of

432
00:17:58,620 --> 00:17:56,500
open-minded apostle position as you

433
00:18:01,379 --> 00:17:58,630
possibly can right but how do you do

434
00:18:03,690 --> 00:18:01,389
that yeah I mean that's impossible right

435
00:18:05,850 --> 00:18:03,700
so you're trying to hold of that but how

436
00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:05,860
does that really play out I don't know

437
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:08,289
if it isn't possible when I say it's

438
00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:10,480
impossible it's impossible because we

439
00:18:17,129 --> 00:18:13,289
all I mean we know from psychology

440
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:17,139
basics we see what we are conditioned to

441
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:19,360
see so yeah I think it's important I'm

442
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:21,250
not trying to challenge you on this I

443
00:18:25,230 --> 00:18:22,570
think it's an important discipline and

444
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:25,240
to be trained to try and you know pull

445
00:18:29,639 --> 00:18:27,250
back your biases like a police detective

446
00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:29,649
or something like that and you know but

447
00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:31,750
we can't totally distance ourself from

448
00:18:34,649 --> 00:18:33,190
our past our conditioning and all the

449
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:34,659
rest of that now what happens when your

450
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:35,950
whole world is turned upside down when

451
00:18:40,379 --> 00:18:38,080
you see something that's totally outside

452
00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:40,389
your belief system you're the perfect

453
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:41,320
guy to do it

454
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:42,730
because you've been trained to do it but

455
00:18:47,370 --> 00:18:45,250
it still has to be somewhat of a trippy

456
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:47,380
experience yeah it's a strange

457
00:18:52,139 --> 00:18:49,840
experience but I think just thinking

458
00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:52,149
about what you just said that it made me

459
00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:54,070
think that the whole process is kind of

460
00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:56,289
like an active process it's not like you

461
00:18:59,759 --> 00:18:57,850
go in there and you're passive and you

462
00:19:01,529 --> 00:18:59,769
just let it all wash over you how did

463
00:19:03,779 --> 00:19:01,539
you see something that you for instance

464
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:03,789
you might not believe whatever that

465
00:19:08,580 --> 00:19:06,610
means like seeing something levitate in

466
00:19:10,919 --> 00:19:08,590
the room and you don't believe it you've

467
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:10,929
got to actively try to kind of suppress

468
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:13,240
your disbelief and just go with the flow

469
00:19:17,970 --> 00:19:16,450
of what's happening and then with

470
00:19:20,580 --> 00:19:17,980
ethnography what you do at the end is

471
00:19:22,529 --> 00:19:20,590
you write it all up and then you can you

472
00:19:24,629 --> 00:19:22,539
can kind of explore some of the ideas

473
00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:24,639
you can you can explore the way the

474
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:26,260
people who were involved in it

475
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:28,210
experienced it and also how you you

476
00:19:33,090 --> 00:19:30,370
yourself experienced it but do that

477
00:19:35,279 --> 00:19:33,100
afterwards when you're there you should

478
00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:35,289
be as much like engaged in it as you

479
00:19:41,009 --> 00:19:38,440
possibly can and yes suspending your

480
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:41,019
disbelief that's definitely what I did

481
00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:42,010
anyway

482
00:19:45,930 --> 00:19:43,390
my supervisors come up with this

483
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:45,940
interesting methodology she calls it

484
00:19:50,909 --> 00:19:48,130
cognitive empathetic engagement and

485
00:19:53,789 --> 00:19:50,919
basically you'll have to read her papers

486
00:19:55,409 --> 00:19:53,799
to to really like get the full rounded

487
00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:55,419
picture of what she means when she talks

488
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:58,450
about this but it is this kind of trying

489
00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:01,120
to see the world as other people see it

490
00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:04,750
so not dismissing it not ignoring these

491
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:07,870
aspects of experience and trying to

492
00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:10,000
understand how those kinds of experience

493
00:20:14,430 --> 00:20:12,309
then go on to influence the world view

494
00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:14,440
of the people that you're studying and I

495
00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:16,150
think basically that's what my research

496
00:20:22,289 --> 00:20:19,809
has done or I've tried to do overall you

497
00:20:25,049 --> 00:20:22,299
know that's fascinating and again maybe

498
00:20:27,150 --> 00:20:25,059
this is a little bit off topic but I

499
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,160
don't think it is because I see that dr.

500
00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:29,919
Julie Bushell has written a nice review

501
00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:31,660
of one of your books there so you're

502
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:34,390
obviously familiar with her work what is

503
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:37,929
the feedback loop if you will like in

504
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:41,200
these areas of anthropology para

505
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:43,210
anthropology which we'd have to kind of

506
00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:45,130
break apart that word and talk about

507
00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:47,470
what we really mean because para is such

508
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:49,780
a kind of pejorative term sometimes I

509
00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:51,520
you know it's almost like you attach it

510
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,190
to anything and immediately undervalues

511
00:20:59,720 --> 00:20:56,559
it but let's leave that aside for a

512
00:21:02,520 --> 00:20:59,730
second what is the feedback loop like

513
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:02,530
between these strange anomalous

514
00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:05,770
phenomena that you're encountering and a

515
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:09,720
more kind of straightforward scientific

516
00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:13,200
analysis of whether those phenomena are

517
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:16,590
quote-unquote real or some kind of

518
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:20,530
illusion or trick of the brain that we

519
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:23,770
hear about so much from our friends in

520
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:27,730
the anomalistic psychology kind of area

521
00:21:33,030 --> 00:21:30,970
the reality of it or non reality of it I

522
00:21:34,409 --> 00:21:33,040
mean on one hand I hear you saying well

523
00:21:37,650 --> 00:21:34,419
that doesn't really matter it's what the

524
00:21:40,039 --> 00:21:37,660
people are experiencing or think they're

525
00:21:44,159 --> 00:21:40,049
experiencing but on another level yes it

526
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:44,169
does matter yeah I think that's that's

527
00:21:48,419 --> 00:21:46,630
one of the strange the strange things

528
00:21:50,190 --> 00:21:48,429
about my kind of perspective on it

529
00:21:51,870 --> 00:21:50,200
because on the one hand I am very

530
00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:51,880
interested in whether it's real or not

531
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:53,470
and as to whether my interest in

532
00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:55,850
parapsychology comes into all of this

533
00:21:59,490 --> 00:21:57,440
then at the other end of the spectrum

534
00:22:02,560 --> 00:21:59,500
there's my kind of like social science

535
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:02,570
side of myself that's more interested in

536
00:22:06,610 --> 00:22:04,850
how the people experience and

537
00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:06,620
incorporate these experiences into their

538
00:22:10,299 --> 00:22:08,630
lives and and all of those kind of

539
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:10,309
things but one of the things I want to

540
00:22:15,299 --> 00:22:12,110
do with parent apology with the journal

541
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:15,309
was to kind of make a space where both

542
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:17,570
anthropologists and parapsychologists

543
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:19,370
could come together and kind of share

544
00:22:23,950 --> 00:22:21,770
ideas on on what's going on in these

545
00:22:25,779 --> 00:22:23,960
kind of situations I mean there are

546
00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:25,789
anthropologists who who have done

547
00:22:29,529 --> 00:22:27,919
parapsychological experiments in the

548
00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:29,539
field as well which is quite an

549
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:30,700
interesting area

550
00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:33,110
an anthropologist called Patrick geese

551
00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:35,590
look for instance has done work with a

552
00:22:41,260 --> 00:22:39,110
pka experiments in the field in the

553
00:22:44,529 --> 00:22:41,270
Amazon with with some positive results

554
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,539
as well but yeah that kind of crossover

555
00:22:49,210 --> 00:22:46,640
is what I'm really interested in

556
00:22:52,649 --> 00:22:49,220
indeed in Jacquie have some interesting

557
00:22:55,659 --> 00:22:52,659
thoughts in terms of how maybe

558
00:23:00,220 --> 00:22:55,669
parapsychology could move forward

559
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:00,230
quicker better by incorporating in some

560
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:02,570
of the sensibility that you've gained

561
00:23:07,450 --> 00:23:05,120
through this kind of anthropological

562
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:07,460
approach to these phenomena do you want

563
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:09,770
to come expound on that yeah I think

564
00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:12,559
I've written about previously as the way

565
00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:16,070
that parapsychological experiments take

566
00:23:20,620 --> 00:23:17,870
these experiences that people have

567
00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:20,630
generally spontaneous experiences and

568
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:24,710
I've tried to reduce them down to you

569
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:26,480
know it's a phenomena that are really

570
00:23:30,159 --> 00:23:28,370
easy to investigate in the lab and

571
00:23:32,860 --> 00:23:30,169
obviously that's an important thing to

572
00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:32,870
do because that's how you get solid

573
00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:35,720
proof of things but through looking at

574
00:23:39,220 --> 00:23:37,520
the kind of social processes that are

575
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:39,230
involved in these guys in these kinds of

576
00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:41,090
experiences which is what

577
00:23:46,510 --> 00:23:44,360
anthropologists do parapsychologists

578
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:46,520
could for instance could could learn

579
00:23:52,539 --> 00:23:48,770
ways of making their experiments more

580
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:52,549
true to to real-life does that make

581
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,039
sense no I mean yeah yeah and actually I

582
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:56,720
think there's kind of two interesting

583
00:24:00,909 --> 00:23:58,250
ways to pull that apart I mean one is

584
00:24:02,529 --> 00:24:00,919
what I've heard from parapsychologist in

585
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:02,539
particular I remember Dean Radin saying

586
00:24:05,980 --> 00:24:03,610
this which I thought was very

587
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:05,990
appropriate I mean is this a super smart

588
00:24:09,340 --> 00:24:07,730
guy and I respect you a lot but he said

589
00:24:11,230 --> 00:24:09,350
look you know we

590
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:11,240
had to bring it into the lab because

591
00:24:16,090 --> 00:24:13,970
well he didn't say that he said you know

592
00:24:19,630 --> 00:24:16,100
one of the benefits you get and bringing

593
00:24:22,380 --> 00:24:19,640
it into the lab is understanding the

594
00:24:25,150 --> 00:24:22,390
nature of the phenomena in terms of

595
00:24:28,570 --> 00:24:25,160
whether it's in innate quality and

596
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:28,580
innate ability in humans or whether it

597
00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:32,090
is particular to certain human beings or

598
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:33,830
certain cultures and all the rest of

599
00:24:37,810 --> 00:24:35,690
that and that's an important question

600
00:24:39,549 --> 00:24:37,820
and the only way you can answer that is

601
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:39,559
through that but I think what you're

602
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:41,510
pointing out and I totally agree with is

603
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:44,960
that okay once you answer that question

604
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:48,049
you check that checkbox then you might

605
00:24:52,510 --> 00:24:49,970
want to circle back around and say a

606
00:24:56,740 --> 00:24:52,520
couple of other questions one is does

607
00:24:58,690 --> 00:24:56,750
this ability manifest itself more in

608
00:25:01,480 --> 00:24:58,700
some people than in others and obviously

609
00:25:03,850 --> 00:25:01,490
we know it does but particularly what I

610
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:03,860
think you bring that I had never thought

611
00:25:08,830 --> 00:25:05,840
of and I think is an interesting thing

612
00:25:11,529 --> 00:25:08,840
to kind of grind on is is it more

613
00:25:14,289 --> 00:25:11,539
prevalent in certain cultures is it more

614
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:14,299
prevalent in certain social situations

615
00:25:22,090 --> 00:25:18,320
with certain combinations of events

616
00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:22,100
people rituals practices all those

617
00:25:26,049 --> 00:25:24,350
things and I just think that's mind

618
00:25:26,980 --> 00:25:26,059
blowing that opens it up in so many

619
00:25:28,779 --> 00:25:26,990
different ways

620
00:25:30,130 --> 00:25:28,789
am I in the right direction and what are

621
00:25:32,830 --> 00:25:30,140
your thoughts on that specifically in

622
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:32,840
terms of what might be the directions

623
00:25:39,299 --> 00:25:36,370
that folks might want to go to find this

624
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:39,309
phenomena manifesting itself more

625
00:25:44,770 --> 00:25:42,110
frequently more measurably all the rest

626
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:44,780
oh yeah well that's exactly what I'm

627
00:25:50,399 --> 00:25:48,799
talking about yeah when you look at the

628
00:25:53,620 --> 00:25:50,409
anthropological literature or the

629
00:25:55,810 --> 00:25:53,630
ethnographic literature and look at the

630
00:25:58,029 --> 00:25:55,820
the kinds of experiences that the people

631
00:26:00,399 --> 00:25:58,039
of have reported to anthropologists in

632
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:00,409
the field all over the world you find

633
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:04,610
these kind of common characteristics for

634
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,210
instance like you said ritual is a major

635
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:10,400
how can I say it it's an important

636
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:12,650
process for people to go through in

637
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:13,850
order to have these kinds of experiences

638
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:16,490
and think that the power psychological

639
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:19,760
community is as missed out on that they

640
00:26:22,899 --> 00:26:21,530
could for instance use ritualized

641
00:26:25,749 --> 00:26:22,909
procedures in

642
00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:25,759
laboratory hmm that's one example or

643
00:26:30,190 --> 00:26:28,220
take the laboratory out to the rituals

644
00:26:33,879 --> 00:26:30,200
the only problem is trying to maintain

645
00:26:36,219 --> 00:26:33,889
the kind of natural quality that that a

646
00:26:38,289 --> 00:26:36,229
real ritual would have but those are the

647
00:26:40,239 --> 00:26:38,299
kinds of areas that I think that more

648
00:26:41,979 --> 00:26:40,249
research needs to be done like what is

649
00:26:44,919 --> 00:26:41,989
actually para psychologically speaking

650
00:26:46,509 --> 00:26:44,929
going on in rituals like it is PK being

651
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:46,519
used you know all of those kinds of

652
00:26:50,589 --> 00:26:49,279
questions but the other good the other

653
00:26:52,049 --> 00:26:50,599
useful thing about the the

654
00:26:55,289 --> 00:26:52,059
anthropological and ethnographic

655
00:26:58,259 --> 00:26:55,299
approach is seeing the kind of social

656
00:27:01,060 --> 00:26:58,269
social processes that give rise to

657
00:27:04,389 --> 00:27:01,070
paranormal experiences so what kind of

658
00:27:07,330 --> 00:27:04,399
social and and cultural prerequisites

659
00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:07,340
are there for the manifestation of kind

660
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:10,059
of robust parapsychological phenomena

661
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:12,470
fascinating what are some of your kind

662
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:16,129
of intuitive hunches in terms of what we

663
00:27:22,450 --> 00:27:19,210
might find out if we go down those paths

664
00:27:26,589 --> 00:27:22,460
well yeah I think I think the obvious

665
00:27:28,419 --> 00:27:26,599
will be found the rituals have evolved

666
00:27:31,239 --> 00:27:28,429
or developed over thousands of years

667
00:27:35,469 --> 00:27:31,249
because they are efficacious or possibly

668
00:27:38,469 --> 00:27:35,479
efficacious so rituals for for instance

669
00:27:41,109 --> 00:27:38,479
divination have developed because they

670
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:41,119
do actually work so it'd be interesting

671
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:43,369
to do a you know para psychological

672
00:27:48,159 --> 00:27:45,590
experiments on these traditional

673
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:48,169
divination rituals to find out if it is

674
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:50,330
the same kind of phenomenon this that

675
00:27:53,589 --> 00:27:51,679
seems to be occurring in in

676
00:27:55,869 --> 00:27:53,599
parapsychological experiments in the lab

677
00:27:57,519 --> 00:27:55,879
to find out if it is that that they're

678
00:27:59,259 --> 00:27:57,529
tapping into I think that's something

679
00:28:01,509 --> 00:27:59,269
that an anthropologist called Michael

680
00:28:03,989 --> 00:28:01,519
Winkelman was getting at in an article

681
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:03,999
he published in I think it was in 1982

682
00:28:09,369 --> 00:28:06,799
in which he basically challenged

683
00:28:11,349 --> 00:28:09,379
anthropologists to take seriously the

684
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:11,359
evidence from parapsychology which

685
00:28:14,229 --> 00:28:13,129
suggests that there's some kind of side

686
00:28:17,950 --> 00:28:14,239
process going on

687
00:28:21,099 --> 00:28:17,960
mm-hm and to think about what that kind

688
00:28:23,379 --> 00:28:21,109
of data implies for the sort of

689
00:28:27,719 --> 00:28:23,389
anthropological theorizing on on magic

690
00:28:30,729 --> 00:28:27,729
how about what that data implies for

691
00:28:32,109 --> 00:28:30,739
parapsychology or just science we can't

692
00:28:34,779 --> 00:28:32,119
really go there cuz science totally

693
00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:34,789
ignores all this then but what does it

694
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:36,710
mean in terms of

695
00:28:41,230 --> 00:28:39,410
what's really going on I guess I guess I

696
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:41,240
could jump in two different directions I

697
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:43,310
could see some kind of morphic field

698
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:45,760
Rupert Sheldrake kind of thing we're

699
00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:48,320
repeating a pattern repeating a ritual

700
00:28:53,980 --> 00:28:51,320
somehow creates some kind of synergy

701
00:28:56,650 --> 00:28:53,990
with an existing field that then makes

702
00:29:00,220 --> 00:28:56,660
something more possible or I could see

703
00:29:02,050 --> 00:29:00,230
something on a kind of more extended

704
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:02,060
human consciousness there being other

705
00:29:08,050 --> 00:29:04,190
dimensions of consciousness that we can

706
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:08,060
only even speculate about having some

707
00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:11,510
order in some reality that we have to

708
00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:15,020
tap into in some different ways to make

709
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:16,900
these things happen do you care to even

710
00:29:23,260 --> 00:29:20,240
speculate in terms of what direction

711
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:23,270
this could possibly take us I think

712
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:26,650
that's a tough question that one for me

713
00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:32,210
personally I think it's too early to to

714
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:33,950
really come up with any kind of like

715
00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:36,110
solid definitive model of what's going

716
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:39,500
on but I do think that whatever it is

717
00:29:43,930 --> 00:29:40,910
that's going on it's going to be way

718
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:43,940
more complicated than we you know we're

719
00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:46,450
even aware of at the moment mm-hmm it

720
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:48,470
seems as though from parapsychological

721
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:50,450
experiments that there is some kind of

722
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:53,600
scythe Naumann on some kind of processes

723
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:55,760
that human beings can tap into but as

724
00:30:01,690 --> 00:29:58,490
for the like the wider kind of cosmic

725
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:01,700
scale I really don't know but it's

726
00:30:06,070 --> 00:30:04,010
probably going to be very weird probably

727
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:06,080
going to be very weird I bet you're

728
00:30:13,570 --> 00:30:09,370
right but how do you balance the

729
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:13,580
speaking to and within the existing

730
00:30:18,190 --> 00:30:15,410
paradigm which we have to be kind of

731
00:30:20,170 --> 00:30:18,200
careful to honor and respect because it

732
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:20,180
is the dominant paradigm I don't have to

733
00:30:24,670 --> 00:30:21,440
but you have to because you're seeing

734
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:24,680
your PhD you're trying to succeed in an

735
00:30:30,430 --> 00:30:27,130
academic world that has certain

736
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:30,440
constructs I mean where do you draw the

737
00:30:34,330 --> 00:30:32,450
line I noticed like in one of your

738
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:34,340
papers you said on your agnostic

739
00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:37,730
regarding the mind brain identity theory

740
00:30:41,650 --> 00:30:39,590
mind equals brain as we talked about it

741
00:30:42,850 --> 00:30:41,660
I don't believe for a second that you're

742
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:42,860
agnostic about it

743
00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:45,530
but I think you have to maintain that

744
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,470
you're agnostic about it I mean can we

745
00:30:53,010 --> 00:30:50,080
really go forward

746
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:53,020
within the existing paradigm playing

747
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:55,360
this little game over this little side

748
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:56,980
game over here and just hoping that no

749
00:31:01,500 --> 00:30:58,480
one notices but then at the same time

750
00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:01,510
wanting everyone to notice I mean I play

751
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:03,940
out that dynamic it's it again another

752
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:06,910
very tricky question the paradigm that

753
00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:10,510
we've got at the moment basically either

754
00:31:16,490 --> 00:31:13,470
it needs to be completely overhauled and

755
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:16,500
replaced or it needs some kind of

756
00:31:20,490 --> 00:31:19,930
expansion like an expansion pack added

757
00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:20,500
on to it

758
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:23,980
uh-huh I'm not sure how with this

759
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:26,190
current paradigm we really can move on

760
00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:28,450
there's gonna have to be some kind of

761
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:30,430
change either that or we all just give

762
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:32,890
up researching this stuff but I don't

763
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:34,810
think that's gonna happen I don't think

764
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:36,690
it should happen no it shouldn't happen

765
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:39,130
it's interesting actually the next issue

766
00:31:42,750 --> 00:31:40,570
apparent for apology which should be

767
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:42,760
coming out at the end of this month has

768
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:45,310
been guest edited by dr. marks role and

769
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:48,310
he's given that the issue the title of

770
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:51,730
hypotheses in search for paradigm and I

771
00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:53,290
think probably you'll find that that

772
00:31:56,820 --> 00:31:54,580
issue particularly interesting it's got

773
00:31:59,070 --> 00:31:56,830
lots of contributions from Stanley

774
00:32:01,050 --> 00:31:59,080
Crippler in it but yeah I think that

775
00:32:03,090 --> 00:32:01,060
kind of sums up the situation at the

776
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:03,100
moment we've got all of these hypotheses

777
00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:05,440
about sign and things like that but

778
00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:07,480
there's no paradigm to kind of tie it

779
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:09,460
all together so yeah that we definitely

780
00:32:14,730 --> 00:32:11,890
need some kind of new paradigm I think

781
00:32:17,460 --> 00:32:14,740
but what that new paradigm is I just I

782
00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:17,470
don't know okay check while we have you

783
00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:17,830
here

784
00:32:21,690 --> 00:32:19,300
tell us folks a little bit more about

785
00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:21,700
your book talking with spirits because

786
00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:23,950
to be honest with you I hadn't really

787
00:32:28,110 --> 00:32:26,560
discovered it until a couple days ago so

788
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:28,120
I haven't had a chance to read it I've

789
00:32:31,950 --> 00:32:30,010
just dipped into it I heard a really

790
00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:31,960
fascinating interview you gave about the

791
00:32:37,410 --> 00:32:35,470
book it sounds really really interesting

792
00:32:39,290 --> 00:32:37,420
tell folks a little bit about what

793
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:39,300
they're gonna find if they pick that up

794
00:32:44,730 --> 00:32:42,370
and so the book is it's called talking

795
00:32:47,730 --> 00:32:44,740
with the spirits ethnographies from

796
00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:47,740
between the worlds and basically it's a

797
00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:50,230
cross-cultural survey of spirit

798
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:51,400
mediumship and spirit possession

799
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:53,890
practices around the world and it's got

800
00:32:59,640 --> 00:32:56,770
12 different chapters from various

801
00:33:01,890 --> 00:32:59,650
different cultural contexts so the first

802
00:33:04,649 --> 00:33:01,900
chapter for instance is is a more kind

803
00:33:06,779 --> 00:33:04,659
of general overview and amusing

804
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:06,789
the role of skepticism in ethnography

805
00:33:11,129 --> 00:33:08,769
and then we've got a few chapters on

806
00:33:13,139 --> 00:33:11,139
mediumship in the Western context so

807
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:13,149
stuff on mediumship in in Great Britain

808
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:16,809
and Montreal in Canada and even stuff on

809
00:33:22,109 --> 00:33:19,690
mediumship in in in just the internet

810
00:33:24,810 --> 00:33:22,119
and cyber psychics and then it goes on

811
00:33:28,859 --> 00:33:24,820
to to discuss spirit possession in East

812
00:33:31,859 --> 00:33:28,869
Africa and then off into Cuba Brazil

813
00:33:35,219 --> 00:33:31,869
where mediumship is massive and then

814
00:33:37,469 --> 00:33:35,229
finally it's it goes over to Asia with

815
00:33:39,959 --> 00:33:37,479
Charles Emmons looking at spirit mediums

816
00:33:42,779 --> 00:33:39,969
in Hong Kong and another anthropologist

817
00:33:45,719 --> 00:33:42,789
Fabien gray and looking at mediumship in

818
00:33:47,879 --> 00:33:45,729
Singapore and Taiwan so it's got quite a

819
00:33:50,009 --> 00:33:47,889
lot of stuff in there and I think one of

820
00:33:53,249 --> 00:33:50,019
the the main aims of the book was to

821
00:33:55,409 --> 00:33:53,259
show that mediumship isn't just what we

822
00:33:57,799 --> 00:33:55,419
see in the Western context there's a lot

823
00:34:01,349 --> 00:33:57,809
more to mediumship than you know

824
00:34:04,649 --> 00:34:01,359
ectoplasm and table tipping and platform

825
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:04,659
mediums it's a really broad almost near

826
00:34:09,329 --> 00:34:07,450
universal human phenomenon and what do

827
00:34:11,579 --> 00:34:09,339
you make of that diversity I guess that

828
00:34:13,019 --> 00:34:11,589
gets right back to the huge question we

829
00:34:17,369 --> 00:34:13,029
were talking about that we can't really

830
00:34:19,859 --> 00:34:17,379
fully penetrate but just at the most

831
00:34:23,069 --> 00:34:19,869
basic level what's your biggest takeaway

832
00:34:25,289 --> 00:34:23,079
from the broad diversity of these

833
00:34:28,409 --> 00:34:25,299
experiences that all fit pretty nicely

834
00:34:31,319 --> 00:34:28,419
also within the context of what we think

835
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:31,329
about in terms of mediumship yeah the

836
00:34:34,769 --> 00:34:33,010
broad takeaway message I think is that

837
00:34:37,769 --> 00:34:34,779
there seems to be something going on

838
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:37,779
yeah there's something that human beings

839
00:34:43,409 --> 00:34:40,240
are kind of tapping into or at least

840
00:34:45,659 --> 00:34:43,419
trying to tap into which suggests again

841
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:45,669
that they're yeah there's something

842
00:34:49,470 --> 00:34:47,440
going on I don't know what that's

843
00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:49,480
something ultimately will be but you

844
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,089
know people have been doing it as far

845
00:34:58,019 --> 00:34:54,879
back as you cared to look and as far

846
00:35:00,269 --> 00:34:58,029
abroad as you care to look as well even

847
00:35:03,089 --> 00:35:00,279
right in our own like back gardens and

848
00:35:05,579 --> 00:35:03,099
garden sheds I found it's all there it's

849
00:35:08,430 --> 00:35:05,589
all happening just so it's very

850
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:08,440
interesting you know just to underline a

851
00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:11,170
point that you made earlier about going

852
00:35:16,289 --> 00:35:13,960
in your own backyard I think if there

853
00:35:17,069 --> 00:35:16,299
maybe is a blind spot traditionally in

854
00:35:17,940 --> 00:35:17,079
anthropology

855
00:35:20,819 --> 00:35:17,950
it's too

856
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:20,829
see the others as being somehow

857
00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:22,930
different than we are and I think that's

858
00:35:28,349 --> 00:35:26,950
been I guess a specific aim of your work

859
00:35:31,380 --> 00:35:28,359
to kind of take a different perspective

860
00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:31,390
is that correct yeah that's correct and

861
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:33,430
I guess I just love would like to add

862
00:35:37,470 --> 00:35:36,010
one more thing to what you said it's

863
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,480
happening I guess is one of the

864
00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:39,760
takeaways and I may be another takeaway

865
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:42,700
is anyone who attempts to pin it down

866
00:35:49,740 --> 00:35:45,760
and say it's this it's happening because

867
00:35:53,609 --> 00:35:49,750
it's this because it's Satan through the

868
00:35:56,339 --> 00:35:53,619
Bible as described in verse chapter this

869
00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:56,349
that doesn't really fit or people who

870
00:36:02,099 --> 00:35:58,720
want to say that it's some kind of New

871
00:36:05,069 --> 00:36:02,109
Age consciousness changing ufo-related

872
00:36:07,230 --> 00:36:05,079
not put down UFOs but you know in this

873
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:07,240
it's very difficult to say it's this you

874
00:36:11,579 --> 00:36:09,280
know it's difficult to say it's not this

875
00:36:14,490 --> 00:36:11,589
but it's also difficult see it is this

876
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:14,500
right yes is and that's that's one of

877
00:36:18,539 --> 00:36:16,410
the things again why I think that

878
00:36:20,730 --> 00:36:18,549
anthropologists taking note of what's

879
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:20,740
been going on in parapsychology and in

880
00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:22,690
the study of mediums for the past 130

881
00:36:27,660 --> 00:36:26,140
years is so important because over and

882
00:36:30,299 --> 00:36:27,670
over again anthropologists come to the

883
00:36:32,460 --> 00:36:30,309
conclusion that spirit mediumship you

884
00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:32,470
know either it serves purely social

885
00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:36,790
functional purposes or it's a product of

886
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:39,790
cognitive mis firings in the brain or

887
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:42,910
whatever but none of these these sort of

888
00:36:47,130 --> 00:36:44,470
grand models that they come up with

889
00:36:48,569 --> 00:36:47,140
really actually when you look at it and

890
00:36:51,210 --> 00:36:48,579
how it's played out in the field

891
00:36:53,309 --> 00:36:51,220
actually explains what's going on and

892
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:53,319
parapsychology has taken that bold step

893
00:36:58,319 --> 00:36:55,930
of tackling the ontological questions

894
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:58,329
about what's really real and I think

895
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:00,400
that's a an interesting Avenue for

896
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:03,970
anthropology to explore because it's got

897
00:37:08,609 --> 00:37:06,160
huge implications for the rest of

898
00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:08,619
Sciences and antha the the dominant

899
00:37:14,660 --> 00:37:11,950
paradigm as you said yeah absolutely

900
00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:14,670
Jack tell people more about how they can

901
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:17,049
dive into your work you have so many

902
00:37:21,450 --> 00:37:18,970
great essays up there that people can

903
00:37:23,670 --> 00:37:21,460
download for free and really jump into

904
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:23,680
this stuff tell folks how to how to get

905
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:25,930
there and how to do it the easiest way

906
00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:27,760
to get hold of all the parents apology

907
00:37:31,690 --> 00:37:31,240
issues under 17 the 18th issue is coming

908
00:37:33,609 --> 00:37:31,700
out

909
00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:33,619
at the end of this month it's just to go

910
00:37:40,510 --> 00:37:38,540
to WWF apology co uk or just search for

911
00:37:42,339 --> 00:37:40,520
parents apology on google and he should

912
00:37:44,049 --> 00:37:42,349
come up pretty easily there's a whole

913
00:37:46,780 --> 00:37:44,059
load of articles on there that'll be of

914
00:37:49,170 --> 00:37:46,790
interest to people there's also a parent

915
00:37:51,730 --> 00:37:49,180
apology book that was published in 2012

916
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:51,740
to celebrate the second anniversary of

917
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:53,540
the journal and it kind of picked the

918
00:37:59,140 --> 00:37:56,000
cream of the crop of the of those two

919
00:38:01,569 --> 00:37:59,150
years and you can find that quite easily

920
00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:01,579
you can search for it on Amazon and

921
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:03,950
parents apology it's on the website and

922
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:05,770
I'm hoping to get another book together

923
00:38:10,210 --> 00:38:08,000
because net this year was actually the

924
00:38:11,770 --> 00:38:10,220
fourth anniversary of the journal so I'm

925
00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:11,780
hoping to get another book together that

926
00:38:15,549 --> 00:38:13,430
will look at the best articles from the

927
00:38:17,530 --> 00:38:15,559
past two years and hopefully get that

928
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:17,540
out sometime next year that's the plan

929
00:38:20,170 --> 00:38:18,010
anyway

930
00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:20,180
excellent excellent we'll look for that

931
00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:22,220
and I'm also going to provide a link in

932
00:38:29,380 --> 00:38:26,030
the show notes to your website ad

933
00:38:32,829 --> 00:38:29,390
academia.edu because you also have some

934
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:32,839
other nice information on your work in

935
00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:35,510
particular there so we want ya introduce

936
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:37,940
people to that Jack it's been great

937
00:38:42,430 --> 00:38:40,130
having you on we certainly wish you the

938
00:38:45,339 --> 00:38:42,440
best of luck with this work going

939
00:38:48,849 --> 00:38:45,349
forward and I hope you'll come back on

940
00:38:50,829 --> 00:38:48,859
at some point and update us on where

941
00:38:53,740 --> 00:38:50,839
your work is leading you yeah let's say

942
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:53,750
thank you very much thanks again to Jack

943
00:38:58,420 --> 00:38:55,880
Connor for joining me chan skeptic Oh a

944
00:39:02,740 --> 00:38:58,430
couple of quick notes one I wanted to

945
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:02,750
mention a little bit about skeptical 3.0

946
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:05,359
which is a concept that I floated out

947
00:39:09,579 --> 00:39:07,730
there are a few episodes ago and it has

948
00:39:11,710 --> 00:39:09,589
to do with how the show might be going

949
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:11,720
forward and one of the things that has

950
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:13,250
kind of come out of that that I really

951
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:15,049
like and I really think we can build on

952
00:39:21,250 --> 00:39:18,710
is this idea of doing follow-up

953
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:21,260
interviews and building that into the

954
00:39:26,109 --> 00:39:24,290
process so what I'm doing for a couple

955
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:26,119
of shows that we're working on right now

956
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:28,970
is I'm doing the interview then I'm

957
00:39:33,460 --> 00:39:31,250
previewing the interview to some

958
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:33,470
skeptical listeners who have expressed

959
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:35,930
an interest in the interview and they've

960
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:38,240
expressed that interest by going to the

961
00:39:42,010 --> 00:39:39,890
forum and when I announce an upcoming

962
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:42,020
interview then they're in there saying

963
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:43,010
hey here are some of the questions

964
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:45,000
here's some of the other work this

965
00:39:50,180 --> 00:39:47,280
person is done here's where I think this

966
00:39:53,210 --> 00:39:50,190
interview might need to go so I'm trying

967
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:53,220
to post those forum entries for upcoming

968
00:39:56,930 --> 00:39:55,320
interviews on a pretty regular basis so

969
00:39:59,240 --> 00:39:56,940
if you're into the forum you might want

970
00:40:00,800 --> 00:39:59,250
to check for those and then if you have

971
00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:00,810
some good comments there I'm gonna

972
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:03,900
invite you to listen to a pre-release of

973
00:40:07,970 --> 00:40:05,490
the unity right after I record it and

974
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:07,980
then we can engage in a dialogue about

975
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:10,890
what should be the follow-on questions

976
00:40:14,180 --> 00:40:12,390
because I think the follow-on questions

977
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:14,190
as I've mentioned so many times in this

978
00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:16,290
show are really where the work gets done

979
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:19,320
in terms of changing thinking on my part

980
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:23,610
or maybe expanding thinking of my guests

981
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:26,370
if I can be so bold as to say that but

982
00:40:30,110 --> 00:40:27,810
that's where some of the fun stuff

983
00:40:33,260 --> 00:40:30,120
really happens so if you'd like to be

984
00:40:34,850 --> 00:40:33,270
part of that process please pop on over

985
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:34,860
to the forum and join the discussion

986
00:40:39,650 --> 00:40:37,110
over there and I think as I just laid

987
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:39,660
out you can get into that and it'll be

988
00:40:45,020 --> 00:40:41,910
great you'll be helping me and hopefully

989
00:40:46,610 --> 00:40:45,030
you'll be more engaged in the topic so

990
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:46,620
that you can get more out of them which

991
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:48,960
is always my open intent so check that

992
00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:50,910
out if you're interested the second

993
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:52,620
thing I wanted to mention and it's also

994
00:40:57,650 --> 00:40:55,530
kind of been going on in the skeptic OH

995
00:40:59,000 --> 00:40:57,660
forum and it's a follow on again to

996
00:41:01,850 --> 00:40:59,010
something that I mentioned a previous

997
00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:01,860
show is I really tried to reach out with

998
00:41:06,290 --> 00:41:04,110
my old friends in the skeptic and

999
00:41:07,730 --> 00:41:06,300
atheist community now I don't want to

1000
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:07,740
push this too far and I want to make

1001
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:10,890
anyone super uncomfortable but for a

1002
00:41:17,060 --> 00:41:13,290
long time I've had this kind of Anytime

1003
00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:17,070
Anywhere challenge out there to engage

1004
00:41:21,380 --> 00:41:19,140
to dialogue it doesn't have to be a

1005
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:21,390
debate but it sometimes evolves into a

1006
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:24,240
debate but it just strikes me as

1007
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:27,090
stunning that all the prominent people

1008
00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:29,210
in the skeptical communities

1009
00:41:35,570 --> 00:41:33,030
quote-unquote are unwilling to engage in

1010
00:41:37,580 --> 00:41:35,580
critical discussions about science I

1011
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:37,590
mean come on the points that I would

1012
00:41:41,390 --> 00:41:39,720
make our science points they're all

1013
00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:41,400
right there in the book they have to do

1014
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:42,660
with the nature of consciousness

1015
00:41:47,060 --> 00:41:45,450
near-death experience all the other

1016
00:41:49,310 --> 00:41:47,070
stuff that we talk about on this show

1017
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:49,320
the link of spirituality and

1018
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:52,290
consciousness how can these be topics

1019
00:41:57,230 --> 00:41:54,510
that these folks are not willing to

1020
00:41:58,920 --> 00:41:57,240
engage in and yet they're not and it

1021
00:42:01,770 --> 00:41:58,930
really reconfirms

1022
00:42:04,250 --> 00:42:01,780
what I've stated many times that I've

1023
00:42:08,099 --> 00:42:04,260
discovered which is these folks are

1024
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:08,109
exactly like the Christians that they so

1025
00:42:12,839 --> 00:42:10,690
rail against who just want to be left

1026
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:12,849
alone to believe what they want and not

1027
00:42:17,339 --> 00:42:15,010
be challenged on their beliefs well I

1028
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:17,349
guess that's well enough that's not the

1029
00:42:21,530 --> 00:42:18,790
way I like to operate

1030
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:21,540
not when you're publicly out there

1031
00:42:26,790 --> 00:42:24,490
proclaiming yourself to be a critical

1032
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:26,800
thinker proclaiming that you're willing

1033
00:42:31,799 --> 00:42:29,650
to carefully analyze the evidence and

1034
00:42:33,839 --> 00:42:31,809
come to the best conclusion possible I

1035
00:42:35,730 --> 00:42:33,849
mean there's a huge contradiction there

1036
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:35,740
so in my process of reaching out and

1037
00:42:40,530 --> 00:42:37,690
trying to create that dialogue I've also

1038
00:42:43,049 --> 00:42:40,540
asked skeptically sinners to reach out

1039
00:42:46,380 --> 00:42:43,059
and do that so if you're connected to

1040
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:46,390
anyone who has a blog a prominent blog

1041
00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:49,510
or a prominent podcast or is a writer in

1042
00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:51,670
the skeptical or atheist they go

1043
00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:55,630
hand-in-hand community please invite

1044
00:43:01,470 --> 00:42:59,680
them to dialog to engage and I don't

1045
00:43:03,839 --> 00:43:01,480
care where it's done it can be done on

1046
00:43:05,970 --> 00:43:03,849
the skeptical platform it can be done on

1047
00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:05,980
their platform I don't care about the

1048
00:43:10,109 --> 00:43:08,200
format it can be a structured debate

1049
00:43:12,569 --> 00:43:10,119
where each person has an allotted time

1050
00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:12,579
it can be a free flow discussion I'm

1051
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:14,710
really a pretty easy guy to talk to as

1052
00:43:18,809 --> 00:43:17,410
you know from listening to these shows I

1053
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:18,819
mean I'm not going to shout somebody

1054
00:43:23,339 --> 00:43:21,490
down so if there's anyone out there who

1055
00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:23,349
can help facilitate that and make that

1056
00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:25,180
happen I think that'd be great

1057
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:26,950
I'd love to do it and I think it would

1058
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:29,920
make for good skeptical listening so

1059
00:43:37,349 --> 00:43:33,609
then finally on to a question to tee up

1060
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:37,359
from this episode and what came to mind

1061
00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:39,970
for me was an extension of a question

1062
00:43:46,020 --> 00:43:42,700
that we've asked previously and that is

1063
00:43:49,859 --> 00:43:46,030
what about this experience thing does

1064
00:43:51,450 --> 00:43:49,869
experience matter and obviously I think

1065
00:43:53,910 --> 00:43:51,460
it does and I think that's one of the

1066
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:53,920
real blind spots of science is that

1067
00:43:58,559 --> 00:43:55,930
they've really danced around and for the

1068
00:44:02,700 --> 00:43:58,569
most part ignored the whole idea of

1069
00:44:04,859 --> 00:44:02,710
experience so the extension of that the

1070
00:44:07,410 --> 00:44:04,869
Jack hunter so beautifully kind of

1071
00:44:10,530 --> 00:44:07,420
transitions to in this interview and in

1072
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:10,540
his work is what does experience mean

1073
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:12,910
from a social standpoint

1074
00:44:17,580 --> 00:44:15,520
what is the experience of culture and

1075
00:44:19,980 --> 00:44:17,590
how does that matter what is the

1076
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:19,990
experience of ritual even in this small

1077
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:22,210
group that has this ritual what is that

1078
00:44:27,570 --> 00:44:24,640
collective experience and how might that

1079
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:27,580
matter so I think it does two things one

1080
00:44:31,650 --> 00:44:28,930
it opens up a whole bunch of questions

1081
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:31,660
about that and about how ritual might

1082
00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:33,550
matter and how culture might matter but

1083
00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:36,550
it also I think further highlights this

1084
00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:40,180
blind spot that experience has to be

1085
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:42,190
able to be brought back into the

1086
00:44:47,850 --> 00:44:45,310
equation and can't be written off as an

1087
00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:47,860
illusion just something that's happening

1088
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:49,750
inside the brain and doesn't really

1089
00:44:54,570 --> 00:44:52,450
matter scientifically so that's the

1090
00:44:58,050 --> 00:44:54,580
question I tee up of course a place to

1091
00:45:00,870 --> 00:44:58,060
respond is either through the skeptical

1092
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:00,880
forum at skeptic Oh - forum dot-com

1093
00:45:06,990 --> 00:45:03,250
which you can get to from the sceptical

1094
00:45:10,260 --> 00:45:07,000
website which is at s ke PTI

1095
00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:10,270
ke o comm or you can connect with me on

1096
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:13,150
Facebook drop me an email or leave a

1097
00:45:17,310 --> 00:45:15,520
comment right there after the show notes

1098
00:45:19,820 --> 00:45:17,320
well that's going to do it for this

1099
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:19,830
episode of skeptic oh I do have several

1100
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:22,720
interesting episodes coming up they're

1101
00:45:27,450 --> 00:45:25,090
there they're waiting I hope my guests

1102
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:27,460
aren't going to be too frustrated at the

1103
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:30,250
delay that experiencing between when I'm

1104
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:32,170
doing these interviews and when I'm

1105
00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:34,570
getting them out but I don't know it's

1106
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:36,430
just part of the process I guess I'll

1107
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:38,710
try and do better but I get anxious I

1108
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:40,210
find people that I really want to talk

1109
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:41,920
do that I'm excited too and I call them

1110
00:45:45,630 --> 00:45:43,510
up and I do these interviews a lot of

1111
00:45:47,310 --> 00:45:45,640
time I realize oh my gosh I got a few

1112
00:45:49,470 --> 00:45:47,320
more than I can really get out but

1113
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:49,480
that's part of the skeptical thing for

1114
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:51,760
me at any rate I do appreciate you

1115
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:53,470
listening please tell your friends about

1116
00:45:58,170 --> 00:45:55,930
sceptical blog about us comment about us

1117
00:45:59,550 --> 00:45:58,180
tell other people what's going on here

1118
00:46:02,700 --> 00:45:59,560
so they can share and what we're doing